If we could ...
Saw Stephen Fry interviewed by Michael Parkinson the other night. He is always a treat (Fry, not Parky), but this time I came away with something extra.
Apparently Fry had recently been involved in making a film or documentary series about depression and bipolar / manic depression. Of course, his own history gives him a particular interest in and insight into such conditions, but there was one particular anecdote which affected me deeply.
He said that he asked a group of creative people that if they had a button in front of them that with one push would remove their depressive episodes, psychoses or any other symptoms of their illness, would they press it? One button which would remove the blackness, the suffering, the desperation for ever.
He said only three of the many people he asked said they would. The rest were too afraid that their creativity and personal make-up was so entwined with their depressive periods that they would lose too much. They were simply not prepared to give up what they regarded as an integral part of their personas, and too afraid to risk being left without what may be a crucial impetus for their creativity.
Having grown up with and around several depressive / creative people, and inherited many of the genes (alas, more depressive than creative sometimes!), it wasn't really a surprise, but it was interesting to see such feelings illustrated so clearly. So many people are genuinely willing to suffer genuine darkness to feed their art.
And in case you think this post is far too serious, I just re-read it and the first thing I thought of was that fantastic Bob Dylan pastiche which Neil Innes did on the Rutland Dirty Weekend Songbook album:
"Ladies and gentlemen ... er ... I've suffered for my music, and now it's your turn ..."
Apparently Fry had recently been involved in making a film or documentary series about depression and bipolar / manic depression. Of course, his own history gives him a particular interest in and insight into such conditions, but there was one particular anecdote which affected me deeply.
He said that he asked a group of creative people that if they had a button in front of them that with one push would remove their depressive episodes, psychoses or any other symptoms of their illness, would they press it? One button which would remove the blackness, the suffering, the desperation for ever.
He said only three of the many people he asked said they would. The rest were too afraid that their creativity and personal make-up was so entwined with their depressive periods that they would lose too much. They were simply not prepared to give up what they regarded as an integral part of their personas, and too afraid to risk being left without what may be a crucial impetus for their creativity.
Having grown up with and around several depressive / creative people, and inherited many of the genes (alas, more depressive than creative sometimes!), it wasn't really a surprise, but it was interesting to see such feelings illustrated so clearly. So many people are genuinely willing to suffer genuine darkness to feed their art.
And in case you think this post is far too serious, I just re-read it and the first thing I thought of was that fantastic Bob Dylan pastiche which Neil Innes did on the Rutland Dirty Weekend Songbook album:
"Ladies and gentlemen ... er ... I've suffered for my music, and now it's your turn ..."
posted by MargieCM at 9:24 am
37 Comments:
People that are creative, the really serious, and really good ones, are more often than not a bit whacked. Or Gay. Or Jewish. Have I covered them all?
I'm surprised that anyone that suffered from manic depression would not press that button. But I guess the button is only meant for Gays and Jews.
But seriously, that puzzles me. If they give up the depressive mood do they also lose the high that often follows or precedes it? If so, this may solve the puzzle.
I've only purchased one Bob Dylan album and one CD. The album was the one with the song about Hurricane Carter on it, the one with the girl playing violin that blew me away, and the CD was the one that Daniel Lanois produced in 1989.
TOMMY
Hi Tommy D____,
Yes, I know it seems that a bipolar person would do anything not to re-live that pain, but when you truly believe the pain is part of the creative process, or provides inspiration for it or whatever, the thought of losing touch with it must be daunting. I imagaine it would also be very difficult to cut loose from a whole aspect of your persona, however horrific, and yes, I guess the 'high' has its own addiction for some. I think however many of the people Stephen Fry spoke to were not 'manic' however - just (?) prone to visits from the Black Dog on a fairly regular basis.
Perhaps it's a little like the creative alcoholic - afraid that if he or she gives up the drink, the inspiration will go. No booze - no muse. I doubt this is true in most cases, but if you're looking for an excuse to keep drinking, it's as good as any I suppose.
I have actually known a couple of artists (a painter and a sculptor) who were the most 'normal', un-tortured, nine-to-five people you could ever meet. Their work was good, too. Maybe they had secret lives, or were closet goat-shaggers or something, but I never saw any hint of it.
Don't think Whacked/Gay/Jewish covers all bases for the creative soul. Mind you, all three make a potent combination.
I prefer Dylan's early stuff, but that's because my brother brainwashed me from the cradle. I didn't dare argue then. I do now.
For reasons that I don't need to mention here, I suffered from depression all my life until about six years ago. Okay, it wasn't bi-polar in origin, just good old clinical and reactive depression. I found it cripplingly debilitating, maybe because my nature is inclined towards the cheerful and humorous. At the time, I wouldn't have hesitated to press such a button as for my creativity to thrive (and OK, I'm no genius) I need to feel at ease with my world. To be finally released from these black periods was like waking from a prolonged and painful nightmare.
Nevertheless, looking back, I can readily believe that some people are, in a way, addicted to their depressive state, just as there are crisis junkies - people who cannot survive without creating stress and tension around themselves. It can be that life only has meaning or even comfort in that condition, and for the intensely creative, it's almost like a drug that they feel they need to be able to produce their art. I know there were times when I was shocked by the comfort I felt in my depression. I am very,very happy to say that to be free of it has boosted my creative processes such as they are!
Thanks for a thought provoking and compassionate post, Margie. I love the Dylan line...xx Val
PS. And I don't believe you need to be whacked or gay or jewish to be really creative....it's just that they are the ones who get the attention - often unsolicited- just because they are whacked...etc!
PPS. As for Stephen Fry, I don't think he's whacked, and I have no idea about the other two...not important...he's just altogether brilliant! A genius of note. It's very sad for me to learn that he has himself battled with depression. I didn't know.
Hmmm, reading my own comment again, it sounds as if I count myself among the creative icons. I think I need to hasten to assure you I make no such claim...I just have a go at it...gosh how much more pretentious can I sound? I really know how to dig my own holes don't I...;-)
Anyway, (sigh) enough said, and I'll shut up now..lol
Relax, Val - you sound fine! Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm glad to hear the demons seem to have left you - it sounds as if you had a very hard time of it though.
I suspect most people in this blogging community have a fairly strong creative streak. It doesn't mean we're all genuises, or even hugely talented, (although I think some certainly are at least in the latter group) - just that we have a desire for expression.
I suppose everyone does in a way - even if it's only arranging a vase of flowers, changing around the furniture or putting the tomato sauce in a bowl on the table instead of leaving it in the bottle. It's about degrees. The scale could be from a: Cutting your breakfast toast in different shapes, to z: writing War and Peace or painting the Guernica series. We're all in there somewhere!
Me - I'm hugely creative. Ate my toast cut into diamonds this morning!
Hi Margie
Re your question on Rachel's blog, someone (me? who? me?) doubted in public that Rachel read the comments on her blog, given the total absence of interaction between her and the commenters.
Later I asked her to remove my comment.
I guess that more or less sums it up - and it gives people (including those who haven't read my comment) something to write about ;-)
neil needs our help!!
Thanks Gypsy - on to it!
Margie,I've sent an email to James Casey. I wish I had a phone number but I don't. He knows where Neil lives, so hopefully he can go to him. Thanks for letting me know, my friend. I've also been in touch with Gypsy by mail and it doens't sound good at all. We just have to hope we've reached him in time.
Margie,
I was able to get a comment to Neil, but when I tried e-mailing him I got an automated response that he's too busy to read the e-mails. I really hope he's OK! I'm worried about him too!
Margie, just read your reply on my blog. Yes, I hope, so hope you are right there. I've also left an offer to help him out financially if that's aprt of the problem. I don't have a lot of money, but I can help him out if he has some pressing bills, which I'm assuming, given the nature of some of his recent posts. I just don't quite know how to send money over there. As I'm sure many others do, I know what it's like to have the bailiffs knocking at your door, and that can be enough to make you want to end it all, and it's also quite a simple problem to remedy, simpler than the psychological problems. It's possible other people can do the same, so hopefully it might spark an idea or two. Hmmm, Rachel's blog had a facility for making donations. I wonder if it's still there....going to have a look..till later, xx
Val - I hadn't really focussed on that, although there were indications. You're right of course; such things are relatively easily fixed. Other things need bigger band-aids. If I can help ...
Thanks Margie. I've just picked up the idea over time, reading his posts, that money could be an issue, and then seeing that message in the bottle post...well the notion came that he feels he can't escape the problems, not even that one.
I know it's not everything, but if you have that problem on top of everything else..well...it can tip the balance. As you say, the others need bigger band aids..nice expression..but then I like your way with words very much, Margie.
So far, I haven't found a good way to do anything practical in that area, other than Western Union Transfer, but I'm hoping James Casey will get to see him, so then we may have a clearer view on what's troubling him..I do hope so. I'll keep you posted xx
Thanks for that Val. Getting late at night here now, but I hope by the time I check in tomorrow morning there'll be some good news. I read that you said James would drop over to his house. I'm so glad he is close enough to be able to do that. Wishing and hoping.
M x
Margie, I know you're probably in bed asleep now, but I thought you'd like to wake yup to the knowledge that Neil is alive, if not well. James went to see him, and the door was answered by a friend who said he was tool poorly to see anyone but would be seeing the doctor tomorrow, and she will update James if Neil doesn't. Worst fears allayed but a way to go before he's back. Hope you had a good night xx Val
Margie
I've been accused of being a bit whacked, too - to quote Tommy D...
I found this a very interesting post as well as quite profound. We are who we are and often "normal" is not... well... really normal.
I would not opt for the button - too much at stake there!
:)
Dale
To quote Bob Dylan...
"The artist is always in a state of creating".
Margie,
Thought Id drop by and say g'day!
Sorry I havent left a comment on your blog for a while.
I've been spending a lot of time in a town called Tungamah. Its about 20 km south of Yarrawonga. My Dad owns a house up here and I love the peace and quiet. It is helping me recover enormously though I still miss Melbourne when away.
On your post, I consider myself to be some kind of creative person. However the thought of enduring another psychosis not only frightens the hell out of me but is something I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy. I cant understand how anyone creative or not might 'enjoy' the process on any level.
I missed the Parkinson intervew with Fry but would have liked to have seen it. Maybe they will repeat it on foxtel at somestage.
Keep It Moist
Neans
Thanks for your comment on my blog Margie. It's good to know there are so many caring people around, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the attention and support you in particular have been giving from your far corner of the world.
I'm sure Gypsy has also been touched. Quite apart from the virtual friendship, Gypsy knows Neil personally, and it is even harder for her as she lives in the north of England, which is too far to be able to 'pop' down and see him...a horrible situation to be in when you are so anxious about someone you care for. Thank all that's in the heavens for dear James for being our messenger.
If I hear any more, I'll keep you posted, but have to go out to work now, so maybe you'll get an update before me! Thanks again Margie xx
Hi Neans - I've posted this on your blog too - never sure whether to respond to comments here or on others' blogs - I've said this before, but there must be an etiquette manual for this thing somewhere!
Thanks for yoor comments here. I really appreciated your response; you've spent time in a place I haven't been to - not like that - so your insights mean a lot. I can only try to imagine how terrifying it must be to contemplate a return to that state.
Your Dad's place in the country sounds wonderful. I miss the city life too when I'm away, but need both. Country life is different, more peaceful, with fewer obligations - at least for a part-timer.
Oh, and by the way; I think you look better after a drink than I do before one! I still haven't got to the photo stage on this roundabout. No time to play, and a certain reluctance to be so visible. Coward.
Til next time,
Cheers, M.
Thanks Koos, Metalchick and Dale for visiting and commenting here. I'll try and put something more cheerful up next time! Dale, the button question is a big one - read Neans' comment for another view. No-one is right or wrong.
Val, thanks again for keeping in touch about Neil. I hadn't realised that Gypsy and Neil were "real-flesh" friends as well. It must have been horrific for Gypsy to be without any news for so long.
Hope for more encouraging news soon. Just after ten pm now, and I am heading to bed; I will be up early in the morning - it's my lovely, fragile, funny and now 15-year-old's birthday tomorrow, and we want to make a fuss of her before we all go off to school / work for another 'normal' day.
Life goes on, with all its imperfections - and I am so grateful.
Margie, first of all a happy Happy Birthday to your daughter. Fifteen is such an age of blossoming. I hope both you and she have a wonderful day.
Secondly, Neil has posted. He's OK, but not well. He knows that which is a good thing. Panic over, though.xx
your post is interesting and bang on...i agree..
Just been over to Neil's. Lovely to hear from him, however shakily. I agree Val - his acknowlegement that he is unwell is a major step forwards.
How weird that we were talking about depressive illness here. Maybe not, though. There's a lot of it about. Fortunately, these days it's a little easier to discuss, and more readily acknowledged. I think about Neil a lot. It's often the more sensitive, wonderful souls who are affected.
Thanks Val for Em's birthday wishes - I will pass them on. She'll be tickled. She is one of the above souls, and has had a rough time this year. I love her to bits.
Thanks for your comments on the post Gypsy - it's been really interesting having the different responses.
I must do a cheerier (is that a word?) post soon. Maybe another song about fruit. Or not.
M x
My best to you and your country in the loss of Steve Irwin.
Our family loved him a whole lot, from the TV shows.
--Dan L.
Thanks Dan - that's sweet of you. I believe he was even more widely watched in America than here, populations and satellite TV being what they are. Certainly his death has affected many, particularly children, who see not just the loss of a seemingly indestructible man, but worry about the fragility of their own fathers' lives. He was well-known as a family man, larrikin or not.
I think it is the irony of the freak nature of his death that has hit people too. After all those years of wrestling crocodiles, cuddling snakes and getting close and personal with countless dangerous creatures, to have a normally placid creature attack him for no apparent reason was just bizarre. Apparently there have been only three deaths attributable to rays here since about 1930.
Live every day ...
Hey Anguselvis - nice to see you again.
I agree perfection is dull. Or would agree, if I'd ever been close to it.
What is it about early death that seems so romantic to some? And consumption / TB? Isn't that how Shelley died, or am I completely wrong? Can't see anything romantic in coughing up blood myself. Must be the pale and interesting angle.
I think a lot of great art does come through pain, but aside from any cathartic benefit, I suspect it's better for the audience than the artist.
Aha! Thanks for that Anguselvis. Must brush up on by poet bios. Did you ever see the Prince Regent series of Blackadder? There's a lovely scene in Mrs Miggins' pie shop with "her poets" wallowing aesthetically in their fragility and desperation. Edmund remains unimpressed. Find and watch, if you can.
oh a lovely al stewart song about fuit..THE SMALL FRIUT SONG...said the apple to the orange..all a wanted you to come...closer and kiss me to the core...then you might know me like no other orange...has ever done...before...
ha ha black adder.is superb...baldrick..."i have a cunning plan"....i love black adder..did you see the very last one where they all got blown up on the front line..so moving when the scene turned to poppys...
Hi Margie
Thanks for a lovely comment on my blog and... your digging through it will be rewarding, I guarantee in all modesty ;-)
Here is a tip to make small letters more easily readable.
If you have a Mac, hit command + (apple plus).
I don't know the shortcut for Windose, probably Control +. Anyway, in all my 4 browsers I find a menu called 'View', under which an option 'text size'.
That shortcut is a reflex action when opening a new page, especially InTheAttic with the tiny letters.
Gypsy - you're kidding, right? Sounds more like Ogden Nash. I am disturbed to say it does something for me though ...
Ah, yes, Baldrick's cunning plans! Never any good. Not like Edmund, who had one so clever you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
As for the last episode of Blackadder, I remember just sitting there at the end, stunned and with my eyes full of tears. I really thought they'd get out of it. Don't know why - they'd all died at the ends of the other series too, but those were so obviously fictional and loony. It's still the most powerful ending to any comedy - no - any drama either - that I've seen. Right up there with the ending of the filmed version of "Oh What a Lovely War". (also set in WW1, as it happens). The fade to poppies was brilliant. If you go to France you can still see the contours of many of the trenches. Sobering stuff.
Now back to fruit ...
No, back to Koos. Thanks for the tip Koos - I will try it. I plan to explore youir blog fully one evening soon when I can sit quietly for more than a few minutes and enjoy it fully. Sunday's looking good at this stage.
Anguselvis - if your funds allow it, get the boxed set of all four series. They stand repeated viewings very happily, and are just SO funny. Do it if you can.
Interesting post, Margie. I won't pretend to understand why someone would want to continue to suffer in order to feed their art, but that's because I have never experienced such conditions as bipolarity or depression (although my ex-hubby did, and I know a lot about what it's like to be with someone like that.
I find, personally, that I can only create if I'm happy and free of worries.
we wont mention the bananas..
No Gypsy...not the bananas!!....darn it!!...that's all I can think of now...mmmmmmm
No! I tell you bananas have now priced themselves out of the market here for all but the most rudimentary functions, and even those are rationed. Hurricanes have far-reaching consequences, you know.
Anne-marie - thanks for visiting - I've left a note on your latest post too.
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